Serious Issues and Breakfast Food

[book_worm5]

Breaking yet another journal silence here, and this one's a big one.  The idea was to write this post tomorrow, as I really shouldn't  be up, but it's three AM and this stuff has been rattling about in my brain for over an hour now, trying to get its points in order.  As I expect you all know, the United States finally (!) held its election today (yesterday?) and I clearly have too many American friends, because it's affected my daily life already. :-P

Various things came up while chatting in the aftermath, among them one of those sorts of lovely controversial topics that I'd really prefer to shy away from: abortion.  Now, if you're like me and would rather not get into it, or if you think yourself likely to turn redder than is healthy and/or otherwise snap, please feel free to skip over this post and go look at some of the neat pictures or amusing things from earlier in my journal.  If for some reason you feel an interest in what I have to say, and can confine yourself to one or two line comments or in some other fashion hang on to the modes of polite discourse and sweet reason, by all means read on. 

Warnings: I'll admit right now that I've done little to no research, and have no practical knowledge of the existing abortion laws in either Canada or the USA.  Everything in here is simply musing I've done and what I think about things.  I'll attempt not to generalise, but I very much suspect some will squeak through.

The first point I'd like to bring up that bugs me is how it manages to be such a controversial issue in the first place.  It always seems to come up around elections, and most of the rest of the time no one but extremists on either side or people actually dealing with it think about it at all.  Or it's possible that's just me.  At any rate, it isn't by any stretch a proper debate; both sides have positions and almost always seem to end up talking past each other to no effect.  Just look at the camp names: 'pro-choice' and 'pro-life'.  Now, nowhere in 'pro-choice' does it say anything about 'anti-life' or 'pro-death'.  'Pro-life' may perhaps be 'anti-choice' if you define that particular choice very specifically, but it's certainly not 'anti-will' or 'pro-mindless-sheepdom'.  They aren't arguing the same point.  It's like one person going "porridge and orange juice is a good breakfast" and a second guy coming up and saying "I disagree; strawberry jam is good on toast"--and then making a major political froufrah out of it.  They aren't exclusive; I could easily eat both porridge and strawberry toast in the same week, even the same meal.

In fact, that seems to be where I find myself in the whole debate, relatively pointless though I may think it is, and I sometimes wonder how many others might be the same.  I'm a pro-lifer sandwiched in a pro-choice worldview, or to put it another way, I'm pro-choice by principle, but I believe the right choice is not having an abortion.  I believe very strongly in free will; that we as a species were designed to make choices, make our own way, and in so doing make more of ourselves.  Sometimes that doesn't turn out so well.  I could certainly wish that no-one had ever heard of or invented abortion, but now that it's happened, and it is known, someone, somewhere is going to give it a shot, even if they have no idea what they're really doing.  One of the points I brought up earlier was to say that in my world abortion would only apply when it's certain the mother would die without it and unlikely the child would live.  Even there that has to be a family choice, as that mother may well choose to give her life in the hope of increasing her child's slim chance, but it is, regardless, their choice to make.  Thinking about it further tonight, the sort of situation I was envisioning was almost-full-term grave complications, which might well be a situation for C-section, not abortion.  Nevertheless, just because I can't think of a medical situation that fits those perameters doesn't mean such a thing wouldn't exist.  Life is a very precious thing.  No child's life should be worth less than it's mother's; yet neither should a mother's life be worth less than that of her child.  Every family is different, and so too are the situations with in them to be ataken into account.

I would much prefer there be no abortion.  But I also very much doubt, as I said, that knowing the possibility someone won't try it.  Granting that, I would much prefer it only be tried by licensed, well-trained doctors with a weath of information of the other options possible on hand, access to the adoption and foster-care systems for those who make that choice, and a mandate to discuss those options, help any process along, and provide safe, sterilised, adjudged medically necessary abortions as a last resort to those who choose them.

Does that make me pro-life, or pro-choice?  I really have no idea.  But there I am.

Comments

[reixedyri.livejournal.com]

You know my views already, which mostly coincide with yours.

[jam-jackson.livejournal.com]

1. I like the title of the post. Catchy. :)
2. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. I think they need a new term. Maybe we're Pro-choice-anti-death?
3. I definitely agree that if people are having abortions that it needs to be by a licensed professional. In the past in the US abortion was illegal, but it didn't stop people from having them, and there were more fatalities because of it.
4. Not sure how this fits into the argument, but when my mother became pregnant with me her doctor told her that she *had* to abort or we would both die. She asked for a second opinion and was told the same thing. The third opinion told her it too. But, here we are, 21 years later, alive and kicking. (Well, I'm sure my mother doesn't kick people. That would be impolite. :P )

Anyways, thanks for the post. I'm glad I read it.

Jaimie

[thecrazylali.livejournal.com]

As a woman, the question already has crossed my mind, and I often question myself about it, not only when the question is raised by political issues of some sort. Maybe the fact that my current job is to better understand how embryos work comes into play, too, so I've been thinking a lot about what life is, and from what time can you consider the embryo as an individual, a "being", and stuff like that. (when it's just a bunch of cells, is it already a human being ? or is it when it's brain is formed ? Or when it's starting moving ?)
And I've come to this :
I truly think that having the choice is the most important thing, it's a principle that should not be taken from everyone. Still, dealing with the potential life (or the future life) of someone isn't someting that has to be dealt with lightly. People shouldn't chose abortion like a "contraceptive". But still, there are situations where I fully understand it would be better for everybody, including the "not to be born" baby : is it better to give life to a child that would live in aweful conditions, that would suffer and die in pain because their parents couldn't, haven't raised it as it should have ?
An other situation where I can understand why women would rather abort than keep the baby is when they have been raped, too. If I were in their shoes, how would I feel if I was forced into keeping a baby of the man I would hate the most ?

Anyway, something is certain (at least in my opinion ^^) : if abortion is chosen, then it shouldn't be because it's "more comfortable", or "easier", but because it is the better choice for the "not to be born baby".

(and I agree with you, when performed it should be in the best medical conditions).

[jambosana.livejournal.com]

i think it means that your pro-choice. i feel the same way. i dont like it, i hope that people wouldnt choose it, but id rather have the option then take that away, as its not my choice to choose whats right for someone else.

*huggles*

hope that getting this out, you were able to sleep. loves ya puppy

[rinnamarie.livejournal.com]

I'm a very pro-choice individual, mostly because I have enough brain cells to realize that outlawing abortions won't stop them from happening. I mean, hell - look at all the other laws that get broken every day. :)

But the thing that kills me is that abortion is really just a hotly contested solution to a problem that no one's talking about anymore. If we started teaching responsible sex-education, if we started being more proactive, then maybe we wouldn't have so many unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

However, like in bad fanfic, politics is no place for earth logic. :)

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

Sounds pro-choice to me, as well, as that's how I feel, and pro-choice is how I identify.

[elliemurasaki.livejournal.com]

The label 'pro-choice' is generally understood to mean 'supporting legal abortion', and the label 'pro-life' 'opposing legal abortion'. So that makes you pro-choice.

Of course, I know someone who is very vehement about being pro-life, but whose stated position is that abortion should only be illegal in a world in which abortion is unnecessary, and since we don't yet have any way to terminate a pregnancy before twentysomething weeks without killing the fetus, nor any way to prevent ectopic pregnancy, this is not that world. So self-identify however you please.

[tragical-mirth.livejournal.com]

You need to come around LJ more often. >-:D-< This is the only place I have the time to visit lately.

[book-worm5.livejournal.com]

Heh. Why thank you, I rather liked it.

Those are some of the things I was thinking of, yes.

I'm sure she'd only kick someone if they really deserved it. ;-) But I get your point.

Thank you for reading, and for your response.

Scott

[book-worm5.livejournal.com]

Yes, that is a point. I suppose as a guy it comes up less often for me without outside influence. The point of when somebody considers a child to be a living being is something does come up often in these debates. I really don't know how one can answer that, as I don't remember my childhood near that clearly. In the end I guess people simply have to pick one or ignore the question entirely.

Thank you for responding, and your perspective.

[book-worm5.livejournal.com]

*huggles back*

Thanks. Yes, I did end up sleeping eventually. :-)

[book-worm5.livejournal.com]

Heh, indeed. I'm afraid I'm a product of that culture, too. Despite having been present for sex ed lessons at two separate times (though the first was really for the seventh graders who happened to be in the same room as me, in grade three at the time. I mostly ignored it) I basically got nothing out of it except 'AIDs and STDs are bad. Sharing unsterilised needles or blood can cause AIDs. Abstinence works.' I mean, they went over the existence of contraception, citing that several were uncomfortable and none always work, but there was nothing really to tell me how you'd go about using it. It's possible some of that's me and my memory, because they were trying to catch us early, and I was mostly still at the 'Sex? What? Ew. Can we go now?' stage, but still. Ah well. Hopefully things'll work out. Thanks very much for responding. :-)

[book-worm5.livejournal.com]

Heheh. Yes, I suppose I do. At the least I should post some more ficlets up.

[book-worm5.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I figured I was mostly that way, but there are some aspects of both, so, *shrug*. And who knows, maybe I've pointed out to some pro-lifers that pro-choice doesn't necessarily equate 'murdering bigot' or pro-choicers that pro-life isn't 'backwards idiot'. I rather doubt any of my friends on either side felt that way anyhow, but, oh well. Thanks for your post.

[book-worm5.livejournal.com]

Likely I suppose. I just figure I can be in favour of life and choices at the same time. Thanks for reading. :-)

[book-worm5.livejournal.com]

*nod*
Thanks for noting it, anyhow.

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

Excuse the highjack, Scott hon. :)

This is very true. I never had proper sex ed and I went to one of the most well-regarded schools in my city. In fact, when she found out we didn't know anything, our counselor in tenth grade brought in some prophylactics to show us how they worked. Someone ratted and she probably lost her job over this. (Technically, she chose to resign.) But I know how to use a condom which is more than I can say for the girls who weren't in our meeting-group.

The state of sex ed in this country (and apparently in others too) really gets me.

[rj-lupins-kat.livejournal.com]

Um... wow.

Bravo.